Wednesday, September 2, 2009

Ten Friends


As part of an extensive job interview for a government position, my 24 year old friend had to list ten personal references on his application. But there was a catch. He had to have known each reference for a minimum of two years, they could not be in his current profession, they could not be related to him, and there could not be more than a ten year age difference between them. Since he's 24, I understand not wanting 14 year olds as references, but why not 34, 44, 54 or 64 year old ones?

This got me thinking. If I had to name ten friends under this criteria, I'd be in serious trouble. The most I could name would be seven people, and three of those seven are not exactly "close" friends.

I "get" the no family and even the two years of knowing each other criteria. But the "no colleagues" blows many of my friends out of the process, and the ten year age difference has me totally stumped.

At age 24, are "older" friends considered biased in the applicant's favor? Does a ten plus year age difference mean they don't/couldn't really know the applicant? Is ten years equal to a "generation gap"?

I do not know the organization's thought process for the reference requirements but, it's been a month since I learned of them and I continued to be perplexed. Afterall, I've interviewed probably a thousand job applicants in my career and hired a wide age range of employees. As an interviewer, I'm not legally allowed to ask age related questions so why is a employer allowed to insist on age related references?

Maybe this annoys me so much because many of my closest and dearest friends are 30 to 45 years older than me. Seriously! I run with an older crowd, but I cherish these friendships and they know me very well. And maybe it's because, at age 51, I also have close friends in their 20s, 30s and 40s. Although we don't notice the age difference, apparently, some employers do. These long time friends "wouldn't count" as a reference for my character and reliability, and vice-versa. I think that's odd.

I have always been drawn to people older than me, even as a young girl. One of my closest friends and confidants growing up was 64 years older than me-- Mrs. Smith. I've written about her before. She was instrumental in helping shape the independent woman I am today, but, in some job situations, apparently our age difference diminishes our relationship.

And I won't even start on the ten year age difference also eliminating me as a reference for the numerous young people I've mentored over the years, including interns, students and volunteers for a variety of charitable organizations. I've developed meaningful and on-going relationships with many people half my age but again, our age difference is of no help to these young people trying to launch their careers.

As a child, through my teens and well into my twenties, I had close relationships with my grandparents and great-grandmother; and I've sent a considerable amount of time at assisted living facilities and nursing homes. It's easy for me to spot people-- young and old, who are simply not comfortable with those outside their immediate generation and that's too bad-- They are missing out on some amazing and inspiring men and women.

I wonder if the person who made up the "ten year rule" for the job references is only comfortable with folks his/her own age. I'd be happy to spend time and show them the ropes of hanging with "old folks". They might learn something.

Could you name ten friends under the above criteria?
Welcome to The Fifty Factor - Joanna

55 comments:

  1. As an interviewer, I'm not legally allowed to ask age related questions so why is a employer allowed to insist on age related references? Good question!

    My last 'govt job' was over 20 years ago. Even then they had much the same criteria regarding references..except that crap about the age of your friends or references. It's fuckwitted at best and seems to serve NO purpose.

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  2. That aqe requirement seems totally insane. Many people have close friends who are older or younger than they are. If the aim was to eliminate people too young, they could have just set a minimum age for referees. Perhaps the aim is to see how the interviewee is regarded by their 'peers', still, in pretty much every life situation except school (and by that I mean school-school, not university) 'peers' could still be different ages to yourself.

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  3. I could not list 10 friends with the age limit. Hell, my husband is more than 10 years older than me. Most of my friends are more than 10 years older. Sheesh.

    And I don't hold a lot of stock in personal references. Friends always say nice things about each other.

    Weird requirements - but that is the government for you.

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  4. That's crazy! I would think it would be to their benefit to have a variety of aged. And yes - I would have a hard time coming up with 10 in that age group also!

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  5. Maybe it was just a mind-f***. That's the only plausible explanation.

    And how stupid to think that an applicant would adhere to the age limitation! What is HR going to do, call up a reference and ask for their birth date?

    Would I have 10 friends if I had to follow those rules? Of course not! I don't have 10 friends now. A friend, to me, is someone who will drop what they're doing and travel hundreds of miles on a moment's notice to help. Everyone else is 'friendly' or 'neighborly' or an acquaintance, or a relative - and my immediate family members are more than friends. I think the term is misused a great deal, thereby trivialized.

    I'm not very opinionated, am I? :)

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  6. Heck no!! I guess I wouldn't qualify for the job! When we had to come up with 5 references for working with the Army Corp of Engineers without it being relatives, I did some head scratching. My Mom and Dad told me (when I was looking for work right after high school), it is good to have a minister, an authoratative figure and I can't remember what the other one was! Things have changed!!

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  7. I'd have a hard time coming up with ten, period - much less ten within that criteria. You're right - it's quite ridiculous.

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  8. i´m a little dumfounded by this post... really? it sounds so absurd- thanks for sharing this... i would go on and on, but have to help daniel study the roman empire... besos!

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  9. The only reason why I'd think the gov't would want 10 references is to ensure that the candidate had no conflict of interest by association.

    The 2 year age thing is bizzare.

    Could I list the 10 people - yup. This would be the easy part for me.

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  10. This seems absurd to me as well. Luckily I don´t think I will be in a situation where I will be required to do this, but still, it sure makes it hard for young people.
    I´m with you, I have many older friends as well, and from my survey that I did on my blog, the main readers on my blog are 50 and older too. :)

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  11. The key here, in my opinion, is government. Bureaucracy. Eighteen people probably had input into the rules and 25 people probably had to approve it and add their two cents, so we get twisted criteria. And no, I could not list 10 under that criteria. It's insane.

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  12. I used to be in HR, and you are right on with the age-related questions being forbidden. It makes me wonder if that is even legal for them to have that requirement?

    I couldn't list 10 with those requirements. I probably couldn't list 5 - especially since we are living in a new city now!

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  13. I used to be in HR, and you are right on with the age-related questions being forbidden. It makes me wonder if that is even legal for them to have that requirement?

    I couldn't list 10 with those requirements. I probably couldn't list 5 - especially since we are living in a new city now!

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  14. That's a biased way of sifting through candidates. It seems to favor people unable or unwilling to comprehend others outside their own personal sphere of experience.

    On the other hand...maybe that's the perfect description of a government employee.

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  15. I find the criteria very odd because I have close friends of all ages.

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  16. Wow, I'm confused just trying to keep up with the criteria! lol I don't think I could come up with 10 either! lol I usually run with an older crowd myself too!

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  17. I'm with 'My name is PJ' - I'm stumped before I even begin because my definition of a friend seems to differ from other people. In fact I got so used to people mentioning their numerous 'close' friends that I started to think I was weird, until I read that a study had found that most of us have, on average, a core of just 5 close friends with maybe 10 more as an outer circle of people we truly regard as friends (some of whom will be family).

    Unless this government job is working with children I don't see any justification for this strict and convoluted age criteria. Otherwise it's just plain bonkers and, I'm afraid, all too typical of bureaucrats who need to justify their existence and, as my mother would have put it 'couldn't run a whelk stall in the real world'.

    I'm with you, the ages of my friends, both close and not so close, varies wildly. Maybe I could come up with 10 willing contributors who fit the criteria and who'd be willing to give me a suitably non-commital but nonetheless nice reference...but then that kind of defeats the object, doesn't it?

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  18. WOw, 10 year difference? I'd be in trouble.. I guess I'm a recluse! not only that.. but NON SOCIAL when at home LOL.

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  20. i would be in trouble as well, but would not mind, i think it is great to have generational friends...there is so much we can teach each other. who know maybe it is the nature of the position? weird.

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  21. Very strange requirement. I would have about half the required number of references in that case.

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  22. Good grief, I could probably only come up with 2 friends under those criteria, unless I called up all the people I went to school with.

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  23. You certainly have to wonder about the company's business plan. Seems like it must be run by some narrow-minded individuals. Maybe it would be best if your friend doesn't get hired.

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  24. That is an odd requirement. I would think the most important references would likely be more than 10 years older than your friend.

    Ironically, the people I am in contact with most are my blog/online friends and I don't know most of their ages!

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  25. That's interesting. But I vowed years ago that I'd try to have a friend in every decade of life--and it turns out I do! But like you, most of my friendships are with older women--20 years + my senior.

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  26. Oh Jesus, Joanna.... I'd be circling the drain bigtime. I don't even have ten combined friends and family who would vouch for me.

    (and honestly? I can take the "who would vouch for me" part out and my statement would STILL be accurate)

    Now I'm bummed.

    Break out the vodka.

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  27. I swear to gawd, what you write is always a good read; what your followers write is awesome.

    As to the whole debate about the criteria. We're talking about the government here. When you spend time trying to make sense out of the insane, it makes us start to question you and your sanity. Stop it immediately.

    Nuff said.

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  28. What a bizarre requirement. Makes this Hillbilly gal think the guy on the other side of the desk does NOT have a clue of what he is doing other than makin' good blog material. I would really question working for such a company. Sending Gods blessings your way...........

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  29. wow, that is some criteria! I'm going to tell my hubby about it and see what he thinks (he isn't in Human Resources but management and has hired lots of people over his career life)

    sadly, I think I can come up with 2-3 that would qualify. makes you wonder if your friend really wants to work at a place like that with such unique requirements for references

    betty

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  30. What a stupid criteria! Very strange.

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  31. My husband had to jump through all kinds of hoops recently, to get a Top Secret Military Clearance. There were many references and all kinds of documentation needed, but it was no where near this criteria.

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  32. To me it is a very strange criteria, I would not be able to do it, lots of my friends are older than me, my husband is 11 years older too. It is ridiculous, sounds like something governments would come up with though. That was a little snarky was'nt it.

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  33. This is utterly ridiculous. And I coulnd't do it.

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  35. I think its a total waste of anyone's time.

    I guess I am lucky (in some ways) I wouldn't have a problem with 10 friends - we lived for many years in a close knit cul-de-sac (we have all moved on) but maintain a close friendship. I still have several very good friends from high school and I have cultivated several very close very personal friendships with online people. The ones that are nearest and dearest I have met face to face some even several times. If I had to do this task *shudder* I wouldn't hestitate to call on any of them. I guess not moving more than 10 miles in my life helps.

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  36. I have no friends. At all. Mikey No Mates!

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  37. I think with jobs that naturally receive thousands of applicants, some of the "rules" put in place only to reduce the number of applicants. This would be one of them.

    I could be completely wrong, of course. The rule is ridiculous, unless they specifically didn't want mother/father figures as references. The younger baffles me. The industry thing is ridiculous. I don't know if I could come up with 10. Maybe, but it'd be close.

    Cheers,

    SLC

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  38. Just guessing - could be a security background check type of thing.

    So did this other generation friend get the position?

    There are some odd stuff went you deal with gov. security. I suspect much of it is left over from the cold war.

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  39. This post sent me beneath the exterior of the first layer.

    How many friends do I have that are simply my friends, without work connections?

    How many friends vary in age from me?

    What is the quality of my friendships?

    Do I honor my friendships with the respect they are due?

    Do I choose my friends wisely?

    I will say that in all of these questions, my closest and dearest friends are exactly 10 years old than me. I didn't plan that it just is! WOW!
    We are all celebrating decade birthdays this year.

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  40. Yikes -- a dilemma indeed, especially for one so young, as you pointed out in the post. As Pastor Sharon points out, too, I like how you got me thinking about my friends, how long I've known them, their ages, and whether or not they would write a good reference letter for me :-)

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  41. That is one of the strangest things I have ever heard for a job....I don't get it either. Just for peace of mind....I would have to call and ask!!! I wouldn't even be able to come up with 5!

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  42. That is a wacky requirement and I know that I could not do this. I would think the only person that could resides in a nursing home.

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  43. i don't think I even *know* 10 people I'm not related to. Certainly not within the age criteria they give.

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  44. That is rather odd. And no I couldn't name ten friends who fit the criteria. The older I get the more I seem to think of my family as my friends. I need to get out more.

    I hope this young guy gets through the red tape. On the other hand I think my daughter who is a similar age could meet this criterion but I am not sure the references would be quality ones. It seems the focus is on quantity not quality. I am sure there is some kind of personality profiling behind everything they ask for these days. Scary stuff, and as if there arent already too many hurdles for young people to get their foot on the employment ladder. I remember the days we asked for two references and then rarely rang them because the interview was enough. And rarely did we get it wrong. Now everyone has to have a police check just to work as a checkout operator. The world has gone mad.

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  45. I think that is a horrid rule. Very ageist if you ask me.

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  46. I have friends in their late 80's. My youngest friend is in her late 30's. What the hell difference does the age of one of your friends matter to a potential employer?
    Makes no sense to me. That would bother me and I probably wouldn't want the job after that!

    Hugs!!

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  47. Do twitter and blog friends count..lol...no I couldn't name 10 under that criteria;-)

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  48. Something just occurred to me. If the head of a government organization is a highly religious person who attends church regularly and would like those under him to do the same, wouldn't this at least increase the chances that the person goes to church?

    If you attend church regularly, chances are you are going to have strong acquaintances there, many around your age, who could be used as references.

    Also, if you want to keep, say, the Indian minority out of your organization, or any minority who spends most of their time with their own family, wouldn't this do the trick?

    I can't help but thing that there is some insidious reason for this type of requirement.

    SLC

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  49. Waaaait a minute Mr. Government, isn't this sort of age discrimination between the lines? LOL... How come they can get away with things? This would be a tough question for me I would really have to sit down, think and get out my calculator. Enjoy! xoxo

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  50. I could list 5 friends that fit the catergory (which I've known for 20 plus years). But 10 friends that fit the bill? Gosh, I'd have to seriously think about it! That does seem overly ridiculous. You made very valid points. Maybe they could correct it and give an AGE RANGE - such as, nobody younger than 21, etc. But still, age isn't supposed to be a factor in hiring, so this seems discriminatory!

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  51. I doubt I could even find five with that amount of criteria!

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  52. Is he applying to work for the CIA or something? Very strange interview criteria to meet. Ten references, wow, that is a stretch.

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  53. My husband has been applying for jobs lately and we've seen literally well over 100 applications in the last few months. The two worst were National Guard (10 year history) and a Police job (36 pages literally). The 10 year history is of places you've lived and one reference from each (which is impossible when we as college students moved around once a year), jobs you've had, and even your familys/siblings names, ages, locations now, etc. Sheesh.

    Yeah I dont get that 10 year age gap. Maybe they should say "anyone over 18 is accountable" or something.

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  54. Doesn't this fall under "age discrimination" too? An employer isn't allowed to ask the *applicant's* age, but using the 10-year-max rule, they skirt that restriction, which sounds illegal as heck to me!

    Could I give ten references under the criteria given? Not a snowflake's chance! No relatives, no professional connections - who does that leave?

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  55. Nope. I'd get stuck at 7. I can't imagine what that stringent set of criteria is supposed to prove

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